19th May 2019
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abortion
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19th May 2019, 10:38 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Ah, it's that simple, is it? The women should be wholey responisible, and everything else be damned. Except... It takes two to get pregnant, doesn't it? So why is the common arguement "women should be repsonisble"? And what about accidents? Contraceptive measures aren't entirely 100% effective. And what about the health considerations of both the mother and would-be child?
And using the foster system as an alternative. Heh. Over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed. That path has at least as many horrors in it than the topic of abortion itself.
What right do we have, does anyone have, to dictate what another person does involving their own body and biological process? I certainly couldn't presume to force my opinions on anyone else like that.
it was only hypothetical
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19th May 2019, 10:45 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Your reasoning is very paternalistic, you're basically saying that women should be protect from themselves. Paradoxically, you say that they should be more responsible, however, paternalism and responsibilities (and responsibility means autonomy) are opposites. Anyway, women are responsible, do you really think that they consciously desire to have an abortion? Even for the most cautious and responsible women, birth control methods are not 100% efficient.
Firstly, women are aware that having an abortion is a traumatic process, they know it's painful and stressful. Even a spontaneous/natural abortion results in difficult consequences for a woman. Thus, nobody desires to have an abortion.
However, this collaborates with the pro-choice thesis. There are illegal and unsafe clinics that provide abortions and millions die due to the poor conditions of those clinics. By decriminalizing and by ensuring the right to have an abortion, women would be able to abort safely, following the correct medical procedures. Through these measures, those risks would be reduced.
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20th May 2019, 08:25 AM
EbonJaeger wrote on 19th May 2019, 10:38 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Ah, it's that simple, is it? The women should be wholey responisible, and everything else be damned. Except... It takes two to get pregnant, doesn't it? So why is the common arguement "women should be repsonisble"? And what about accidents? Contraceptive measures aren't entirely 100% effective. And what about the health considerations of both the mother and would-be child?
And using the foster system as an alternative. Heh. Over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed. That path has at least as many horrors in it than the topic of abortion itself.
What right do we have, does anyone have, to dictate what another person does involving their own body and biological process? I certainly couldn't presume to force my opinions on anyone else like that.
Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Ah, it's that simple, is it? The women should be wholey responisible, and everything else be damned. Except... It takes two to get pregnant, doesn't it? So why is the common arguement "women should be repsonisble"? And what about accidents? Contraceptive measures aren't entirely 100% effective. And what about the health considerations of both the mother and would-be child?
And using the foster system as an alternative. Heh. Over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed. That path has at least as many horrors in it than the topic of abortion itself.
What right do we have, does anyone have, to dictate what another person does involving their own body and biological process? I certainly couldn't presume to force my opinions on anyone else like that.
CoolLloyd wrote on 19th May 2019, 10:45 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Your reasoning is very paternalistic, you're basically saying that women should be protect from themselves. Paradoxically, you say that they should be more responsible, however, paternalism and responsibilities (and responsibility means autonomy) are opposites. Anyway, women are responsible, do you really think that they consciously desire to have an abortion? Even for the most cautious and responsible women, birth control methods are not 100% efficient.
Firstly, women are aware that having an abortion is a traumatic process, they know it's painful and stressful. Even a spontaneous/natural abortion results in difficult consequences for a woman. Thus, nobody desires to have an abortion.
However, this collaborates with the pro-choice thesis. There are illegal and unsafe clinics that provide abortions and millions die due to the poor conditions of those clinics. By decriminalizing and by ensuring the right to have an abortion, women would be able to abort safely, following the correct medical procedures. Through these measures, those risks would be reduced.
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Your reasoning is very paternalistic, you're basically saying that women should be protect from themselves. Paradoxically, you say that they should be more responsible, however, paternalism and responsibilities (and responsibility means autonomy) are opposites. Anyway, women are responsible, do you really think that they consciously desire to have an abortion? Even for the most cautious and responsible women, birth control methods are not 100% efficient.
Firstly, women are aware that having an abortion is a traumatic process, they know it's painful and stressful. Even a spontaneous/natural abortion results in difficult consequences for a woman. Thus, nobody desires to have an abortion.
However, this collaborates with the pro-choice thesis. There are illegal and unsafe clinics that provide abortions and millions die due to the poor conditions of those clinics. By decriminalizing and by ensuring the right to have an abortion, women would be able to abort safely, following the correct medical procedures. Through these measures, those risks would be reduced.
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method? Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation? There is also the slight chance that the fetus could grow up to be a large contribution to society. And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
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20th May 2019, 10:20 AM
I incline towards pro-life only because that’s the only way the human race is gonna keep going, basically. However, if the unborn baby has a disease or genetic disorder which will not give them an adequate quality of life, you gotta abort them in my opinion. You don’t want your child basically living on medicines and treatments when they’re born - they shouldn’t endure it and should just go up to heaven and live peacefully without any pains they may feel if they were given birth to.
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20th May 2019, 11:08 AM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method?
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation?
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
From the Bing search result dictionary:
Quote:
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
Meriam-Webster has almost 20 definitions for the word here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
Do you see anything there that would qualify an unborn fetus as 'alive'? If so, what and why?
I could go on here, but I think this post is long enough as it is.
Also, no, the United States Constitution doesn't mention anywhere any right to life. See https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/05/the_constitution_deprivation_of_life_and_personhood.html
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20th May 2019, 01:10 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
and abortion can cause an “increased risk” of anxiety and depression? id much rather go through a procedure that has only the CHANCE of giving me those things. i would never want to carry the child of my rapist because the mental illnesses i would develop will without a doubt make me suffer far more. the pregnancy would be a constant trigger of the ptsd, and the postpartum depression would become quite serious.
i understand you can have your own opinion, but why on earth could you make someone go through something like that when you as a male cannot and will never be able to understand or feel what that would be like?
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Sushi
20th May 2019, 03:04 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 PM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion because yeah, you don't have to like abortions and like I said before, if you don't morally agree with abortions feel free to not get one because it's not a requirement, it's a choice that women and men around the world have the right to for various of reasons that are justified in their own way. It's like you think an abortion works like this
Woman: Hey I want an abortion
Doctor: Why
Woman: just cuz
Doctor: kk cool lol lets go
There are a lot of factors that are considered up to the point of the decision. For example, planned parenthood gives a guide to people who are considering an abortion, which lists a few questions people want to ask themselves before making a decision this big.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/considering-abortion
so yeah, they do understand the risks that come with an abortion. The woman or the man do whatever they can to make sure what they're doing is the best option they just dont go and be like "oopsie daisy lets just get an abortion it'll fix everything" ofc not, in reality it's never like that but that's how you're portraying it as and I just thought I had to clear that up because it's a type of decision no one wants to make but it SHOULD be there in case people need to; for example teen pregnancies or rape victims, or they're just not financially stable to even afford to have a baby, or afford to support the health of the mother during those 9 months, or they're just not ready at all. What if the mother has a disease that'll be transferred to the baby? What then?
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20th May 2019, 05:05 PM
Cristal412 wrote on 20th May 2019, 03:04 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 PM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion because yeah, you don't have to like abortions and like I said before, if you don't morally agree with abortions feel free to not get one because it's not a requirement, it's a choice that women and men around the world have the right to for various of reasons that are justified in their own way. It's like you think an abortion works like this
Woman: Hey I want an abortion
Doctor: Why
Woman: just cuz
Doctor: kk cool lol lets go
There are a lot of factors that are considered up to the point of the decision. For example, planned parenthood gives a guide to people who are considering an abortion, which lists a few questions people want to ask themselves before making a decision this big.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/considering-abortion
so yeah, they do understand the risks that come with an abortion. The woman or the man do whatever they can to make sure what they're doing is the best option they just dont go and be like "oopsie daisy lets just get an abortion it'll fix everything" ofc not, in reality it's never like that but that's how you're portraying it as and I just thought I had to clear that up because it's a type of decision no one wants to make but it SHOULD be there in case people need to; for example teen pregnancies or rape victims, or they're just not financially stable to even afford to have a baby, or afford to support the health of the mother during those 9 months, or they're just not ready at all. What if the mother has a disease that'll be transferred to the baby? What then?
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion because yeah, you don't have to like abortions and like I said before, if you don't morally agree with abortions feel free to not get one because it's not a requirement, it's a choice that women and men around the world have the right to for various of reasons that are justified in their own way. It's like you think an abortion works like this
Woman: Hey I want an abortion
Doctor: Why
Woman: just cuz
Doctor: kk cool lol lets go
There are a lot of factors that are considered up to the point of the decision. For example, planned parenthood gives a guide to people who are considering an abortion, which lists a few questions people want to ask themselves before making a decision this big.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/considering-abortion
so yeah, they do understand the risks that come with an abortion. The woman or the man do whatever they can to make sure what they're doing is the best option they just dont go and be like "oopsie daisy lets just get an abortion it'll fix everything" ofc not, in reality it's never like that but that's how you're portraying it as and I just thought I had to clear that up because it's a type of decision no one wants to make but it SHOULD be there in case people need to; for example teen pregnancies or rape victims, or they're just not financially stable to even afford to have a baby, or afford to support the health of the mother during those 9 months, or they're just not ready at all. What if the mother has a disease that'll be transferred to the baby? What then?
That's not at all how I'm portraying it, I just believe it's wrong to take the life of a fetus.
EbonJaeger wrote on 20th May 2019, 11:08 AM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method?
Sure, but again, what about the male half? I don't understand why the focus is always on the female half.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation?
Interesting analogy; not one I have seen before. I think this comes down to the definion of the word 'life.' When does an unborn baby's body become it's own, and not just an extension of the mother's? More on this later.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
Does it though? Seems to be that the question of "when does life begin?" is still highly debated, without a definite answer. And it's a really hard question to answer, and seems to always come down to beliefs. So, let's quickly look at some definitions of the word 'life'.
From the Bing search result dictionary:
Quote:
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
I would say that disqualifies a fetus from being considered 'alive.'
Meriam-Webster has almost 20 definitions for the word here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
Do you see anything there that would qualify an unborn fetus as 'alive'? If so, what and why?
I could go on here, but I think this post is long enough as it is.
Also, no, the United States Constitution doesn't mention anywhere any right to life. See https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/05/the_constitution_deprivation_of_life_and_personhood.html
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method?
Sure, but again, what about the male half? I don't understand why the focus is always on the female half.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation?
Interesting analogy; not one I have seen before. I think this comes down to the definion of the word 'life.' When does an unborn baby's body become it's own, and not just an extension of the mother's? More on this later.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
Does it though? Seems to be that the question of "when does life begin?" is still highly debated, without a definite answer. And it's a really hard question to answer, and seems to always come down to beliefs. So, let's quickly look at some definitions of the word 'life'.
From the Bing search result dictionary:
Quote:
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
I would say that disqualifies a fetus from being considered 'alive.'
Meriam-Webster has almost 20 definitions for the word here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
Do you see anything there that would qualify an unborn fetus as 'alive'? If so, what and why?
I could go on here, but I think this post is long enough as it is.
Also, no, the United States Constitution doesn't mention anywhere any right to life. See https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/05/the_constitution_deprivation_of_life_and_personhood.html
Actually, the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states:
Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
it was only hypothetical
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20th May 2019, 07:21 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
EbonJaeger wrote on 19th May 2019, 10:38 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Ah, it's that simple, is it? The women should be wholey responisible, and everything else be damned. Except... It takes two to get pregnant, doesn't it? So why is the common arguement "women should be repsonisble"? And what about accidents? Contraceptive measures aren't entirely 100% effective. And what about the health considerations of both the mother and would-be child?
And using the foster system as an alternative. Heh. Over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed. That path has at least as many horrors in it than the topic of abortion itself.
What right do we have, does anyone have, to dictate what another person does involving their own body and biological process? I certainly couldn't presume to force my opinions on anyone else like that.
CoolLloyd wrote on 19th May 2019, 10:45 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Your reasoning is very paternalistic, you're basically saying that women should be protect from themselves. Paradoxically, you say that they should be more responsible, however, paternalism and responsibilities (and responsibility means autonomy) are opposites. Anyway, women are responsible, do you really think that they consciously desire to have an abortion? Even for the most cautious and responsible women, birth control methods are not 100% efficient.
Firstly, women are aware that having an abortion is a traumatic process, they know it's painful and stressful. Even a spontaneous/natural abortion results in difficult consequences for a woman. Thus, nobody desires to have an abortion.
However, this collaborates with the pro-choice thesis. There are illegal and unsafe clinics that provide abortions and millions die due to the poor conditions of those clinics. By decriminalizing and by ensuring the right to have an abortion, women would be able to abort safely, following the correct medical procedures. Through these measures, those risks would be reduced.
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method? Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation? There is also the slight chance that the fetus could grow up to be a large contribution to society. And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Ah, it's that simple, is it? The women should be wholey responisible, and everything else be damned. Except... It takes two to get pregnant, doesn't it? So why is the common arguement "women should be repsonisble"? And what about accidents? Contraceptive measures aren't entirely 100% effective. And what about the health considerations of both the mother and would-be child?
And using the foster system as an alternative. Heh. Over-crowded, under-funded, and under-staffed. That path has at least as many horrors in it than the topic of abortion itself.
What right do we have, does anyone have, to dictate what another person does involving their own body and biological process? I certainly couldn't presume to force my opinions on anyone else like that.
CoolLloyd wrote on 19th May 2019, 10:45 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 09:59 PM:
sparklz wrote on 19th May 2019, 12:28 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
why in the world should someone carry a child produced by a crime for 9 months? that would be painful mentally and physically for the woman, its not only the reminder of a horrific event, but the worst possible outcome of it too
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
Your reasoning is very paternalistic, you're basically saying that women should be protect from themselves. Paradoxically, you say that they should be more responsible, however, paternalism and responsibilities (and responsibility means autonomy) are opposites. Anyway, women are responsible, do you really think that they consciously desire to have an abortion? Even for the most cautious and responsible women, birth control methods are not 100% efficient.
Firstly, women are aware that having an abortion is a traumatic process, they know it's painful and stressful. Even a spontaneous/natural abortion results in difficult consequences for a woman. Thus, nobody desires to have an abortion.
However, this collaborates with the pro-choice thesis. There are illegal and unsafe clinics that provide abortions and millions die due to the poor conditions of those clinics. By decriminalizing and by ensuring the right to have an abortion, women would be able to abort safely, following the correct medical procedures. Through these measures, those risks would be reduced.
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method? Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation? There is also the slight chance that the fetus could grow up to be a large contribution to society. And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
1) Women are responsible and no brith control method is 100% efficient.
2) A fetus can't choose. It does not have conscious and the necessary faculties to make a choice. It can't chose.
3) A woman does not have any compromise to contribute to the society if she doesn't want to. It's not society's business to choose whether if she should or shouldn't have a baby. You can't sacrifice females in name of a "society". This sort of collectivism has led to totalitarian disasters in Europe. Remember that a society is a voluntary union.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 05:05 PM:
Cristal412 wrote on 20th May 2019, 03:04 PM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 PM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion because yeah, you don't have to like abortions and like I said before, if you don't morally agree with abortions feel free to not get one because it's not a requirement, it's a choice that women and men around the world have the right to for various of reasons that are justified in their own way. It's like you think an abortion works like this
Woman: Hey I want an abortion
Doctor: Why
Woman: just cuz
Doctor: kk cool lol lets go
There are a lot of factors that are considered up to the point of the decision. For example, planned parenthood gives a guide to people who are considering an abortion, which lists a few questions people want to ask themselves before making a decision this big.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/considering-abortion
so yeah, they do understand the risks that come with an abortion. The woman or the man do whatever they can to make sure what they're doing is the best option they just dont go and be like "oopsie daisy lets just get an abortion it'll fix everything" ofc not, in reality it's never like that but that's how you're portraying it as and I just thought I had to clear that up because it's a type of decision no one wants to make but it SHOULD be there in case people need to; for example teen pregnancies or rape victims, or they're just not financially stable to even afford to have a baby, or afford to support the health of the mother during those 9 months, or they're just not ready at all. What if the mother has a disease that'll be transferred to the baby? What then?
That's not at all how I'm portraying it, I just believe it's wrong to take the life of a fetus.
EbonJaeger wrote on 20th May 2019, 11:08 AM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method?
Sure, but again, what about the male half? I don't understand why the focus is always on the female half.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation?
Interesting analogy; not one I have seen before. I think this comes down to the definion of the word 'life.' When does an unborn baby's body become it's own, and not just an extension of the mother's? More on this later.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
Does it though? Seems to be that the question of "when does life begin?" is still highly debated, without a definite answer. And it's a really hard question to answer, and seems to always come down to beliefs. So, let's quickly look at some definitions of the word 'life'.
From the Bing search result dictionary:
Quote:
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
I would say that disqualifies a fetus from being considered 'alive.'
Meriam-Webster has almost 20 definitions for the word here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
Do you see anything there that would qualify an unborn fetus as 'alive'? If so, what and why?
I could go on here, but I think this post is long enough as it is.
Also, no, the United States Constitution doesn't mention anywhere any right to life. See https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/05/the_constitution_deprivation_of_life_and_personhood.html
Actually, the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states:
Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Also, according to many sources, the life cycle begins at conception and ends at death. Early on into the pregnancy, the fetus will develop a heartbeat, a functioning brain, the five senses, and will be able to breathe and move. All of this within the first nine weeks of pregnancy...and every fetus has the seven characteristics of life.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 PM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
Yet abortion can cause an increased risk of anxiety and depression. Not only that, but they also have to live with the fact that they supported the death of a fetus living in their womb. Abortion can also be physically painful for the woman as well as the fetus. Rape is one of the few valid arguments of pro-choice. Besides that, women should be more responsible if they don't want to become pregnant.
I'm not gonna try to change your opinion because yeah, you don't have to like abortions and like I said before, if you don't morally agree with abortions feel free to not get one because it's not a requirement, it's a choice that women and men around the world have the right to for various of reasons that are justified in their own way. It's like you think an abortion works like this
Woman: Hey I want an abortion
Doctor: Why
Woman: just cuz
Doctor: kk cool lol lets go
There are a lot of factors that are considered up to the point of the decision. For example, planned parenthood gives a guide to people who are considering an abortion, which lists a few questions people want to ask themselves before making a decision this big.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/considering-abortion
so yeah, they do understand the risks that come with an abortion. The woman or the man do whatever they can to make sure what they're doing is the best option they just dont go and be like "oopsie daisy lets just get an abortion it'll fix everything" ofc not, in reality it's never like that but that's how you're portraying it as and I just thought I had to clear that up because it's a type of decision no one wants to make but it SHOULD be there in case people need to; for example teen pregnancies or rape victims, or they're just not financially stable to even afford to have a baby, or afford to support the health of the mother during those 9 months, or they're just not ready at all. What if the mother has a disease that'll be transferred to the baby? What then?
That's not at all how I'm portraying it, I just believe it's wrong to take the life of a fetus.
EbonJaeger wrote on 20th May 2019, 11:08 AM:
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
I agree that both men and women are responsible, however the woman is consenting to unprotected intercourse, therefore don't you think she should be aware that at least one of the two is using a birth control method?
Sure, but again, what about the male half? I don't understand why the focus is always on the female half.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
Aborting a fetus is like pulling the plug on a severely disabled person; neither of them have a choice. So, technically it is the fetus's body as well, and since you are pro choice, how are we going to give the fetus a choice in the situation?
Interesting analogy; not one I have seen before. I think this comes down to the definion of the word 'life.' When does an unborn baby's body become it's own, and not just an extension of the mother's? More on this later.
MuscleBob1 wrote on 20th May 2019, 08:25 AM:
And, since life begins during fertilization, abortion would also be violating the rights to life in the United States.
Does it though? Seems to be that the question of "when does life begin?" is still highly debated, without a definite answer. And it's a really hard question to answer, and seems to always come down to beliefs. So, let's quickly look at some definitions of the word 'life'.
From the Bing search result dictionary:
Quote:
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
I would say that disqualifies a fetus from being considered 'alive.'
Meriam-Webster has almost 20 definitions for the word here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
Do you see anything there that would qualify an unborn fetus as 'alive'? If so, what and why?
I could go on here, but I think this post is long enough as it is.
Also, no, the United States Constitution doesn't mention anywhere any right to life. See https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/05/the_constitution_deprivation_of_life_and_personhood.html
Actually, the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states:
Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Also, according to many sources, the life cycle begins at conception and ends at death. Early on into the pregnancy, the fetus will develop a heartbeat, a functioning brain, the five senses, and will be able to breathe and move. All of this within the first nine weeks of pregnancy...and every fetus has the seven characteristics of life.
You should firstly prove that the fetus is alive, plus, the characteristics "of life" you have appointed are not the correct ones. Again, a fetus does not have autopoiesis, which is a key-characteristic of all living beings.
Plus, having a constitution does not mean that the laws are correct. You can write anything on paper. Slavery has legal, LGBTfobia was legal until a while back, racist laws existed as well. Appeal to the law when it comes to moral issues is a fallacy.
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21st May 2019, 12:31 PM
MuscleBob1 wrote on 19th May 2019, 11:23 AM:
I am pro-life. Abortion takes a human's life and just shows that you are an irresponsible person. Unwanted pregnancies could easily be prevented by protection or birth control methods. If a woman is raped or cannot care for the child, she can just put him/her up for adoption to find a family that can. For unwanted pregnancies, other than rape, the parents are to blame for being irresponsible. Abortion is not justified and should be illegal.
no